#16

RE:

in DotA Heroes Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:51 pm
by richen Adjutant of Newerth | 371 Posts

SIth lord still powerfull D: i think its better increase the 2 skill cooldown or reduce the number of hits D:

but.. great updates on the custom heroes :D


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#17

RE:

in DotA Heroes Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:13 pm
by .GL. Coder of Newerth | 240 Posts

Zitat von pureevil29

Skill 2 Nerf: Damage from 100-150 to 70-140, that is a max damage of ~400 if all strikes hit the same target at max level. Jump distance from 500 to 400. Mana cost to 145 on max level.


Are you sure about damage? There's 1 thing about swiftblades ult that translates here - chainnumber in affector file is lower than actual numer of attacks. If you check swiftblades file you'll see that it says
<chain count="1,3,6"/>
and actual number of slashes is 3,5,8. I'm pretty sure that one of those missing comes from onimpact part in ability.entity file but I'm at a loss where 2nd comes from.
What this means that at level 1 your skill dealt 300-450 damage and this nicely transfers to 600-900 at level 4. Nerfed version will be 210-420 to 420-840.

If you don't believe me - test it yourself. Your skill is not 1,2,3,4 but 3,4,5,6. 1st 2 strikes always go the target, the rest is random =)

Er... jump distance is 400 already, and making it smaller is not really a nerf - it makes it wasier to use it aginst single targets. I was suggesting lowering cast range so people will have time to react when they see sith approaching. And mana cost is 145 at max lvl already...


I will give Spectre, Pagan, Broodmother and Minotaur a look next time I play wuth friends =)


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#18

RE:

in DotA Heroes Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:01 am
by richen Adjutant of Newerth | 371 Posts

Zitat von .GL.

Zitat von pureevil29

Skill 2 Nerf: Damage from 100-150 to 70-140, that is a max damage of ~400 if all strikes hit the same target at max level. Jump distance from 500 to 400. Mana cost to 145 on max level.


Are you sure about damage? There's 1 thing about swiftblades ult that translates here - chainnumber in affector file is lower than actual numer of attacks. If you check swiftblades file you'll see that it says
<chain count="1,3,6"/>
and actual number of slashes is 3,5,8. I'm pretty sure that one of those missing comes from onimpact part in ability.entity file but I'm at a loss where 2nd comes from.
What this means that at level 1 your skill dealt 300-450 damage and this nicely transfers to 600-900 at level 4. Nerfed version will be 210-420 to 420-840.

If you don't believe me - test it yourself. Your skill is not 1,2,3,4 but 3,4,5,6. 1st 2 strikes always go the target, the rest is random =)

Er... jump distance is 400 already, and making it smaller is not really a nerf - it makes it wasier to use it aginst single targets. I was suggesting lowering cast range so people will have time to react when they see sith approaching. And mana cost is 145 at max lvl already...


I will give Spectre, Pagan, Broodmother and Minotaur a look next time I play wuth friends =)




and he's vulnerable while using the skill, but if somebody kill him he still dealing damage and his dead body jumping on the foes D:


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#19

RE:

in DotA Heroes Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:50 am
by pureevil29 Master Sergeant of Newerth | 248 Posts

Richen, Hahahaha yeah I know about hitting even when dead, I had to make him invulnerable like swiftblade when striking to avoid this....

GL, I actually meant cast range, I know that reducing the radius is not a nerf, it is the opposite... What I reduced was cast range :)

Ok I agree with your theory about the bounce amount, I will reduce the damage even more! From 70-140 to 50-100. It will never do 100 damage on all the jumps anyway.

I will wait for your test on the other heroes...

Thanks for your accurate reports! Sometimes I am so In love with some of my heroes I refuse to see their true nature... It is good to have an outside opinion.

EDIT: Ok I tested the new damage (50-100) 1 on 1 vs. Predator and the nerf was waaay too much... On max level and with the predator alone I would only take 240 of his life. Out of 10 jumps it did an average damage per hit of 60... Also the fist hit is not at the target but at the casting point so one hit is wasted... Changed the value to 50-150 and the average damage was 80 per hit and I was actually able to defend myself but in the end I still lost...

EDIT2: 2nd test 1vs 1 against the super nerfed and disarmed Jedi, it was a very close match of 8 kills (Jedi) vs. 7 Kills (Sith). Sith simply has no scape mechanism, jumpers like Valkyrie, Jedi and Dark Lady and Blinkers kick his ass.

I will gather all the info on balance suggestion until Saturday afternoon, I will release the final version 1.3.3 of the Dota Heroes on Saturday Night! It will be a stand alone release so people can play with other people on tungle while being sure they all have the same heroes and version...


Last edited Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:44 am | Scroll up

#20

RE:

in DotA Heroes Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:31 am
by .GL. Coder of Newerth | 240 Posts

Zitat von pureevil29
EDIT: Ok I tested the new damage (50-100) 1 on 1 vs. Predator and the nerf was waaay too much... On max level and with the predator alone I would only take 240 of his life. Out of 10 jumps it did an average damage per hit of 60... Also the fist hit is not at the target but at the casting point so one hit is wasted... Changed the value to 50-150 and the average damage was 80 per hit and I was actually able to defend myself but in the end I still lost...

EDIT2: 2nd test 1vs 1 against the super nerfed and disarmed Jedi, it was a very close match of 8 kills (Jedi) vs. 7 Kills (Sith). Sith simply has no scape mechanism, jumpers like Valkyrie, Jedi and Dark Lady and Blinkers kick his ass.



Er... I don't know what you mean by "fist hit is not at the target but at the casting point so one hit is wasted". When I tested it with 100-150 damage version I hit for 200 damage minimum at level 1 (I always tested it against 2 pebbles heroes - he has low armor so he gets full damage). And other thing is that damage is physical and this means it's reduced by armor. Like many direct damage type skills it's not that great lategame - and predator has almost 50% physical damage reduction with no items. I think that with even with 50-100 damage this skill's extremely good early-mid game. Look at this skill at level 7 - it does 75% of swiftblades ult for 73% mana and coolldown is almost 10 times lower. What will happen to lvl 7 pyromancer when he meets Valmont? He's roughly 750 hp and has like 15% physical damage reduction - so he loses 255-510 hp. Average loss will roughly equal half of his lifebar. Even if condition (target is solo) is not met he gets 85-170 (average 127) guaranteed damage. And you get free invul for the duration as well...

edit: Another issue is that if you meet him in the forest you get loads of damage and there's hardly you can do anything about it. Swiftblades spin for example has extremely low range and his ult is long cooldown...


Last edited Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:46 am | Scroll up

#21

RE:

in DotA Heroes Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:36 pm
by pureevil29 Master Sergeant of Newerth | 248 Posts

Ok will test against Int. Heroes.

I am 100% sure that the first strike is at the casting point! You see the "damage number" appear right at the casting point before the blink and then only 5 more on the target enemy. I can upload pictures if you don't still believe. :)

Don't forget that a "smart" enemy will never be alone when facing the Sith Lord, if we set the damage too low he won't stand a chance against smart players and we all have seen how easy it is to counter swiftblade with smart team play...

If after the test the int. heroes take too much damage I will reduce the number of strikes even further.

But the damage they take is relative to the damage the int. heroes can make on the Sith Lord.

If at lvl 7 the int. heroes can take 60% of Siths health with their available spells it is fair that he can damage them for 40/50% of their health with his skills.

I also don't think that testing only against no armor heroes is fair, since 98% of the heroes he is going to face have more armor than pebbles... It is like testing magebane only with int. heroes, of course his ulti rapes int. heroes, but not so with str. heroes... and magebane needs to have a chance against str. heroes too...

It is easier for pebbles to buy some armor to counter the Sith than nerfing his skill against the other 98% of the heroes. ;)


Last edited Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:05 pm | Scroll up

#22

RE:

in DotA Heroes Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:21 pm
by .GL. Coder of Newerth | 240 Posts

Ok, lets leave this number of strikes issue aside for a bit. I'll give it a full test (atm i'm 99% sure that no matter where numbers pop up damage is steal dealt to target ;) )

Lets just talk about balance philosophy a bit. (I understand that I may be wrong but it's still interesting =) )

Lets look at couple of swiftblade skills - his spin and his ult. His spin deals significan damage but you really can't expect to land it all by yourself - you need a partner with stun/slow so you will have significant chance of landing it in full. And it gives swift incentive to go boots first, which is really risky. His ult, on the other hand is quite possible to land on your own but if you spam it on recharge you will most likely to have it on cooldown when it really matters. Now lets look at sith skill. Low cooldown gives you ability to use it pretty often and it still will be available when you need it, simple "sith mia" message in chat means you can't go to jungle coz you're 80% dead if you run into this guy. When swiftblades ult comes into play laning phase is usually over but when sith skill matters laning phase is far from being over and rune control still plays major role.


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#23

RE:

in DotA Heroes Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:18 pm
by pureevil29 Master Sergeant of Newerth | 248 Posts

Zitat von .GL.
Ok, lets leave this number of strikes issue aside for a bit. I'll give it a full test (atm i'm 99% sure that no matter where numbers pop up damage is steal dealt to target ;) )

Lets just talk about balance philosophy a bit. (I understand that I may be wrong but it's still interesting =) )

.



Yeah I understand your point, I will also have a test match Swiftblade vs. Nerfed Sith...

But it happens with Swiftblade too, if swiftblade is missing you cannot go jungling unless you go with your team!

I will upload Sithlord's latest version so you can test him! And so will I, we post our findings on saturday so I make the final nerfs to the hero.

EDIT: After testing he was indeed quite powerfull at lvl 7 to 13.

Applied the following nerfs:

Skill 2: Now strikes 2,3,4,5 times, from 3,4,5,6 (thanks GL) (changed in the ability file from 1,2,3,4 to 0.5,1,2,3)

Skill 2: Mana cost from 100,115,130,145 to 100, 120, 140, 160. Cooldown from 20, 18, 16, 14 to 26, 24, 22, 20.

This is the up to date and up to nerfs hero file so you can test from this:

http://www.filefront.com/17176870/valmont.rar

And don't test him 1 vs 1 because he is made for that, test him in 3 vs 3 or more now.

Thanks


Last edited Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:24 am | Scroll up

#24

RE:

in DotA Heroes Fri Aug 06, 2010 7:16 am
by .GL. Coder of Newerth | 240 Posts

OK, here's quick feedback about few other characters

Leechking (Spectre).

His passive seems to be extremely strong - it gives almost 50 damage AND attackspeed at level 7 and it's really easy to meet requirements. And the thing is that very often Spectre is not at disadvantage when out of mana - for the most part he gains significant advantage by using his skills before going into fight. His 2nd ability (life drain) allows him to stay in lane without any trouble and makes him awesome jungler. His 1st ability gives insane with right positioning and makes him extremely useful ganker as well %). Btw - I think that stun being 2 seconds even when push duration is 1.25 is a bit too much at 1st level =)

Demo dwarf
Cosmetic stuff - chalice from his stun mine lies on the floor for hours - how about making it disappear sooner?

WIndrunner
I think her stun is over the top - we need our "near tree or enemy unit" condition to get full duration. I don't think it's hard to do - just make onimpact check for tree/unit proximity for the 1st bounce (it will be simular to keeper of the forest invis). And is it intentional that her ult is at lvl 6, 12, 18?


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#25

RE:

in DotA Heroes Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:06 pm
by pureevil29 Master Sergeant of Newerth | 248 Posts

Spectre:

-Skill 1 Stun nerf to 1 / 1.4 / 1.8 / 2.2 secs.
-Skill 3 nerf, requirements too easy to get so he will get reduced bonuses.

Demo Dwarf:

-Fixed Chalice duration.

Windrunner/Mixturer:

- Reduced stun time for second strike. Increased cooldown from 10 sec. to 12 sec.
- Fixed Ultimate levels (It was a mistake)

Thanks GL


Last edited Sat Aug 07, 2010 5:05 am | Scroll up

#26

RE:

in DotA Heroes Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:22 am
by -}Z{- Artist of Newerth | 372 Posts

good day pureevil

nice job on the updates was testing with friends a while ago

pagan hero is awesome well done on that concept, and you forgot to add my huskar to your pack :P hehe
and was just wandering if we could change jedi first skill a bit the rest is PERFECT and playable but the first one is just a sword throw, nothing else
if i may suggest a few things to you like, jedi masters have the abilty to force push aswell or maybe force pull or just something unique for your awesome hero :)

sith is now balanced nicely

and also IMO minotaur return was AWESOME as late game when someone dealing massive damage to you really also hurt them selfs alot
so i kept that the same and sordit ulti i kept where your ulti did damage to you and increased the damage so it really balanced him and thenm i used the rest of his spells you made with the silence and the passive skill. awesome job on that

we still testing more stuff today and will get back to you

keep up the good work bro


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#27

RE:

in DotA Heroes Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:25 pm
by pureevil29 Master Sergeant of Newerth | 248 Posts

Zitat von -}Z{-
good day pureevil

nice job on the updates was testing with friends a while ago

sith is now balanced nicely

we still testing more stuff today and will get back to you

keep up the good work bro



Thanks for your comments Z! Yeah I will add your Huskar for the final version I forgot to add him in the beta.

About the Jedi, I thought on more force abilities like force push... It would fit the concept like a glove, the problem is that it is impossible to Dodge, see, or avoid a force ability, since they are instant and invisible... So for the enemy team when facing a Jedi they have no choice and strategy that could help them deal with the jedi, they have no choice but to take his force abilities in full, just like his ulti...

The lightsaber throw was taken from maliken but it is different, fist the Jedi cannot teleport to his lightsaber, I've never seen a Jedi teleport.

Also, the lightsaber throw has a different range, damage, cooldown and slow than maliken's.

When aimed correctly, a single light saber throw can slow a whole team of enemies, used correctly with force jump and it is easy to take the enemy by surprise!

On the other side, smart enemies will learn how to avoid being exposed to the saber throw, moving separately and in random patterns...

That is why there is more strategy with his abilities as they are right now...

The minotaur still has his return, which is passive like in dota and actually returns more damage now.

The problem with the old was that it gave move speed and armor to the Minotaur and he was too imba! He is now exactly like in Dota and he is still the hardest hero to kill even in hon!

I removed the damage on the witch king's ulti because it was making it harder for players to think strategically with the skill... but I nerfed his stats and all other skils to compensate so be careful about mixing old and new abilities he might end up being underpowered for your version.

Pagan has a real nice concept, I am really happy about the new heroes I made, specially now that they are getting balanced and it is more fun to play with or against them.

I need some feedback on Broodmother, Omega and Arcane Sorcerer now!

Also, how is your nero to doombringer port doing?

Thanks!


Last edited Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:39 pm | Scroll up

#28

RE:

in DotA Heroes Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:31 pm
by pureevil29 Master Sergeant of Newerth | 248 Posts

Ok Tested this weekend in full:

Sith Lord, Jedi, Omega, Pagan, Wich King and Spectre are BALANCED now!

We played 9 matches, 4 vs 4, and never in those matches they were the first on the killing list.

Of them all, the Wich King is the deadliest one on one but he does not help the team as much as the others.

Nerfed Ignus first will with increased cooldown and mana cost, he was too strong!.

Sad thing... we were getting lots of crashes... anyone testing the beta had this problem?


Last edited Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:25 pm | Scroll up

#29

RE:

in DotA Heroes Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:25 pm
by .GL. Coder of Newerth | 240 Posts

I've read your post in bugreports but I decided to answer here as I'm not sure the topic will stay for long there (not a bugreport+modified client).

Yeh, I understand what you're talking about - lots of fixed have heavy sloutions (lots of condition checks and onframe stuff in mime for example). And doctor repulsor is kinda prime example %) I'm not sure if anything's to be done tbh - U try to find less complicated ways but I faikl for the most part.

But anyway. When I play with my buddies we don't crash too often (sure it happens sometimes but not to the point when it becomes impossible to play). I use slight;y modified version by sordit + dota heroes final test (from this thread), nothing else.


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#30

RE:

in DotA Heroes Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:27 pm
by pureevil29 Master Sergeant of Newerth | 248 Posts

That is good to know GL, Thanks!

I will start the clean up process before the final version of the Dota Heroes.

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